Recently, whilest pondering my willy nilly progression through ICC I started thinking a bit...
Then, to compound my wee thoughts, I ran across a link to a vid of a bunch of wipes on a boss in the Cata Stonecore heroic. The video poster was Milquetoast or Floating_air_bisquit or something in that vein. (if you read blogs, I would guess you know who I mean)
And the video was pretty well done, narrated and described.
But then I read the comments. (well, a few dozen out of the several hundred)
Among them:
They better not make ANYTHING in the endgame content of cata easy. i hated wrath having no challenges.
And...
I don't know. I'm thinking many breeze by these so called, "hard"
bosses once the final game releases. Bliz will likely cave in to the crying of
"it's too hard" and I imagine addons will push the difficulty of these
encounters more in the player's favor.
In fact this game would be a lot
better if addons were removed entirely.
And in the few times people mention that with such a massive difficulty spike, a HUGE portion of folks (ie "lolcasuals") will be unable to do much of anything either with "lame" guilds, let alone the whole PuG thing. They got lit up. BY THE VIDEO POSTER.
Witness:
Normaldude 1
2 days ago Eh, the people i end up getting pug'd with wont be able to handle this.
So flip out at me, its Blizzards fault they made WoTLK a fat joke it terms of difficulty.
Milquetoast
2 days ago @normaldude 1 So stop pugging.
Normaldude 2
2 days ago @Milquetoast "So stop pugging"... what is that? Seriously, take a moment to reflect on that point of view. I hope you'll realize just how extreme it is. And how unrealistic. Given the nature of WoW, given the unbalanced population distribution on, oh, I don't know, at least half the realms out there. Again, just think about it for a bit. 5 man content should be puggable, the alternative is unthinkable - the 5 man content being inaccessible to a lot of players.
Normaldude 3
2 days ago @Normaldude 2 Absolutely agreed! You are 1000% correct!
Milquetoast
2 days ago 40 @Normaldude 3 You're hilarious. You think that being in a guild is an 'extreme' attitude. I guess you started playing during Wrath.
It went downhill from there, and "Milquetoast" got a bit nastier (as did others). But the basic fact is that so many elitst assholes seem to think that if you aren't in a top-ish tier raiding guild, with super deep knowledge of the game and your class and every encounter, if you don't eat, breath and sleep WoW, you don't DESERVE to see and/or complete any content.
Because, you know, WOtLK was so easy. After all it only took Paragon how long to complete LKH25?
Oh, wait...
And how many guilds have completed all hardmodes again? WITHOUT THE BUFF
Oh yeah...
But... but... the Brewfest boss is too easy with my 6k GS toon, and killing him only takes 15-20 seconds.
Really? If you have a 6k GS why are you even bothering? You sure as hell don't need the emblems for gear...
It's like going into (current) Deadmines and bitching that Cookie is too easy as a raid geared 80.
wtf?
And even if there might have been a desire (by Blizzard) to re-tune the brewfest boss, there's this little "patch" coming out in a few weeks called Cataclysm that *might* be taking up manpower/resources.
Please, get over yourselves. The last major expansion in WotLK took top raiding guilds MONTHS to beat. And most "fairly hardcore" guilds took weeks-months after that.
And several "serious" players (decent-very good) players simply don't have the option to be in a great guild.
There are a fair number of serious, hardcore guilds, but the vast majority seems to be populated by self centered assholes that ONLY care about the progression, and "people" are just an impediment. If you want to do progression AND be treated like a decent human being, you're shit outta luck.
Yes, quality, "balanced", hardcore/good/fun guilds DO exist, but they are few and far between.
So... you end up with lots of players pugging, playing in less than ideal guilds, etc and struggling with content (even to just see it, let alone complete it). I would guess 50% or more are reasonably skilled players that want to see content, but are in this "less than ideal" situation. And are paying for the pleasure.
Yet the uber-leet hardcore assholes feel that the WoWworld SHOULD revolve around them. Fuck everyone else that can't be bothered to take the game as seriously as they do. You can't dedicate 20+ hours a week for gearing, farming and raiding? TOUGH SHIT!
Somewhow, I doubt that the vast majority of paying players (ie, the source of corporate profit) fit into those cute little molds. Like it or not, keeping THEM happy is what has paid for this upcoming ex*-pak. Not your 1,000 days played, not your 6,200 GS or your top ranked guild.
I realize that WoW is important to you folks. I realize you enjoy a challenge, and I fully understand and respect that. I also think Blizz HAS delivered a great challenge, with Naxx, Uld and especially with ICC (ToC was tough, but yeah, annoying). It took MONTHS for world best guilds to complete them. What else can you reasonably ask for? Even now, with the massive buff, a LOT of us are STILL trying to get our first Arthas kill. So I'm not sure what all the hatred is for.
Easy heroics?
Really?
Fuck, they've been easy for all the "reel srs rayders" since they completed Naxx, let alone once Ulduar gear became common. Prior to gear inflation, they WERE really tough.
But I really don't think that the above factors are the real reason the "uberleet" are so worked up. Why? Because “logically”, the above arguments/explanations can’t explain the venom and vitriol with which the “leet” scream and yell about how easy everything is. The last 12 months have had a TON of difficult, challenging content. Yes, older content has become easier, but as I mention, so has Deadmines! It's a simple fact: leveling and gearing makes ALL old content obsolete. And, if I may be so bold, expecting Blizard to re-tune each and every instance and encounter, just to stay "up to snuff" with the latest and greatest gear is just absurd.
But, even though there are folks that scream and yell for more challenging content, I'm not so sure that's really what they want. (after all, there's probably difficult content still left for many them to accomplish, AND Cata is just around the corner)
My honest, heartfelt guess is simply this: that they want to feel special and superior. That only THEY should get access to the biggest, baddest fights and weapons. That since THEY are willing to walk, uphill, both ways, in 6 feet of snow, that they and only they should reap the "real" rewards (ie, pixels and titles/words) for all their hard work.
In the past, they could (and did) because of the massive reliance on massive amounts of game play to be able to progress, and the huge disparity of progress between the “leet” and the “casual”. The less dedicated (or skilled/experienced) players simply had no way to play the content, gain the gear, etc, etc, etc… (I seem to recall reading that only ~6% of vanilla players got to see end game content – so it truly is a “special” group that made it ... in a rather real -ingame- sense they were special, and superior)
That was then... this is now.
Since Blizzard DOES cater to (or at least considers and tries to accomodate) a more casual, less intense player, it just infuriates the leet. Because the great unwashed masses get to be just as special as they are. Even though they didn't dedicate the hundreds of hours, and aren't cutting edge skilled, they too can haz epics! They too can haz “Kingslayer”.
Oh the humanity...
After all, there ARE titles that us peons will never get (Starkiller, The Immortal, etc). We will never have any real ranking as a player or guild on our server, and server (let alone world) firsts are something we only read about. We won't get our hands on Frostmourne or get 12/12 on hardmodes. So, there ARE a lot of things that only dedicated raiders will accomplish.
And still you guys want more.
Bravo Slik!
ReplyDeleteActually I've always believed the problem is not the uber-leet, who are just getting on with playing the game, but the wannabe-uber-leet who get their leet rocks off by complaining about other players.
Also do I owe you grats on Sindy? :D
Thanks!
ReplyDeleteYou are most likley correct about the who responsible, though the number of fairly reputable folks agreeing with the sentiment is a tad troubling.
I still need to post the pic, but yeah, we downed the anooying undead lady-dragon. :)
Sorry for commenting on an old-ish post, but I just followed Tam's link. :)
ReplyDeleteTB lives off being controversial, but I don't think he's entirely without a point. I for one am looking forward to things like more challenging heroics, particularly because my guild isn't top of the crop. I thought that WOTLK offered some nice and easy content, some super-hardcore content, and little in-between. I remember killing every boss in Trial of the Crusader on the first night it got released, without too much trouble, and then we spent three months wiping to the heroic Northrend Beasts. There was almost no in-between.
Things like every tier introducing about three new levels of gear didn't help either, though Blizzard is aiming to avoid that in Cataclysm. I don't think it's okay for any level 80 content to feel like running Deadmines. Gear should make it easier, yes, but it's still level 80 content, not level 20!
That said, I also like to pug, but I think this whole "we won't be able to pug this" panic is silly. BC heroics were way harder than WOTLK ones ever were, and I still pugged all of them successfully at the time. People give their fellow players too little credit. "Yes, I want to do heroics, but everyone else sucks so we'll fail!" I honestly don't believe that. The first few weeks will be a wake-up call for sure, but I firmly believe that people will simply learn, get better and adjust. I know I did. :)
Thanks for stopping by! I was giggling my head off at Tam's Boomkin torture, then gulped a wee bit when I realized he linked this post.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I just plain suck, but I *just* got my first Putricide kill the other night. (yes, if you happen to see my other posts, I successfully tanked Sindy prior to sucessfully DPSing Pute)
I think maybe you under-rate yourself and your guild, as far as your abilities and such. Granted, I dinged 80 after ToGC. But, even months later my guild struggled to get through there, even after T10 became readily badge available.
Anyhow, I'm not necessarily worried that other PuGgers are going to wipe the group, I'm worried that *I* will wipe the group. My other half, Kattastrophe, is in the beta and I've watched a fair amount. The heroics I've watched her run are harder than pretty much anything else I've seen to date, with the exception of the LK fight. And this was with beta players who are (by and large) above average players, with more time and dedication than most.
I know they're supposed to be a challenge, but I really don't want to spend 2-3 hours on a wipefest every time I queue in LFG. I don't have the time, energy, patience or the gold to pay for repairs.
And to minimize that requires a solid guild to avoid the vagaries and varying skills in a PuG. Which, going back to my current guild, highlights that we are NOT that strong of a guild.
I do understand and completely respect that more advanced folks want a challenge. That's fine. I cheered when Paragon got their LK kill.
But I would also like the opportunity to get past the "regular" dungeons, advance through the heroics, and then try some raiding.
But given what I'm seeing from beta, *I* won't be capable of it. It looks like there's a smidgeon of easy or middle difficulty stuff, and then the difficulty ramps up to 11 for everything else.
Alas, I've wandered off point :) : my main point wasn't so much the difficulty level, but the arrogance of a number of players have towards us "mere mortal" players. and the sense of entitlement that only *THEY* should enjoy the game. I fully understand the godawful balancing act that Blizz undertakes with each expansion.
But I don't care to have others look down their noses at me because I'm "so-so", or because I don't have a guild that has helped me get Kingslayer yet.
Shintar, I read your blog on occasion (though for me as a Pally, I only read it for "entertainment") and I definitely see you posting here & there. I think you & your guild are better than you give yourself credit for. (maybe yours is a really competetive server, so it may seem that way?)
Finding a guild that has "good enough" people skills, and is still "good enough" raiding skills is pretty rare and difficult to find. And for someone like me with somewhat limited playing time, it becomes impossible. (and I kind of doubt my situation is all that rare)
Also, it's not just the nominally controlversial folks that are griping about how easy everything is, was and has been. That elitist attitude exists here & there in the regular blogoshpere as well, and I find that troubling, mainly because for most of us bloggers, being all inclusive is the intent, not flaunting epeen...
Anyhow, thanks again for your thoughtful reply. I am not trying to be argumentative, rather I am trying to esxplain what has me concerned.
Slik/Balth...
Like shintar I apologies for posting on such an old post I also followed tams link :p.
ReplyDeleteI would say in general (ignoring naxx) the issue in WotLK hasn't been the difficulty but the levels of gear inflation. When I first entered Naxx in tier 6 gear I was doing 2.5k dps now in full tier 10 gear I am doing 10k dps. At the same time anyone remember when tanks used to have 20k hp? Now I regularly have to defend tanks who dare to enter LFG with less than 30k hp and tanks in my guild are over 50k hp. This is an enormous increase and will inevitably trivialise content.
Having said this whatever the reason for content being too easy in the second half of the WotLK expansion there has been one serious consequence. People in general play much worse. To use myself as an example I know im one of those asshole dps who ignores aggro and spams AoE spells safe in the knowledge that the healer will have no problem keeping me alive. In TBC even in full sunwell gear mobs would 2 shot me so I was much more careful.
Personally I think if heroics are more challenging pugs will still have no problem clearing them after a few months into the expansion because the general quality of play will of improved. Whatever Gevlon says most people aren't "M&S" they just tend to only put in the effort required to get what they want out of something.
(Also following Tam's link, and very happy to find a new blog to visit, when so many are folding.)
ReplyDeleteI thought WOTLK was the best fun ever even if there were times when I shook my fist at Blizz in frustration.
But the point that resonates with me from your post and follow up comments is the one about guild culture.
'Finding a guild that has "good enough" people skills, and is still "good enough" raiding skills is pretty rare and difficult to find.'
Yes, it is and I'm happy to read someone else (apart from Tam) acknowledging this. Why,this is though, mystifies me. Surely there's no rational positive correlation between gets-out-of-bad-fast-and hits-hard and being an asshat?
Don't forget we'll have the entire leveling experience, plus leveling and 85 regular dungeons, to get accustomed to the new mechanics and play style. I'm really looking forward to the more considered and technical approach of cata. I think it will really help to differentiate skilled players from the facerolling goons. In the current environment of chain-pulling aoe madness the damage Meyer is the only thing people look at, and meters reward gear more than skill. With CC and a tactical, planned style of play making their return I think the average level of play will come up considerably. Wishful thinking I'm sure, but I can dream :)
ReplyDeleteEdit: damn autotype >< replace Meyer with meter.
ReplyDelete@xeppe - Thanks for stopping by and commenting! WotLK was my first "real" experience playing WoW, and I would have to agree with your "enjoy but some fist shaking" sentiment.
ReplyDeleteAs for the guild issue, I'm not sure why. I'm on a fairly new server (Velen) so maybe that's part of the problem? Though I could ee older/more estabished realms being worse. Maybe it's just an inherent part of WoW culture.
@ Anon - Thanks for the comment! :) I figured it was something like autocorrect/etc.
I don't know... even in WotLK, there's plenty to distinguish the "leet" from the "goons": Titles, achievements, hardmodes, and full BiS gear, as well as guild rank, toon rank and all that. And that's ignoring actually playing with them, where it's REALLY apparent who knows what.
As far as it goes, I'm not sure what else there *SHOULD* be to distinguish different skill levels. Do you want low skilled/experienced players to be prevented from playing the game? (ie, any real chance at raiding or other end game content?)
Keep in mind, I'm 40+ years old, I have a full time job, and I have a long commute. This means that my play time is pretty limited. Ignoring that "handicap", thanks to my age and general skill, my hand/eye coordination and muscle memory pretty much sucks, which means I would probably be considered average at best.
And don't ask me about multi-tasking or learning 'new tricks" (the class re-boot) 4.0.1 is kicking my ass. (it's scary, the new tanking rotation seems far easier than the new Ret rotation)
That said, I still want to be able to play WoW, enjoy a fairly thorough exposure and experience within the game. The scary thing is that there is a significant portion of the WoW population that would like to prevent me from doing that.
Should there be some sort of skill penalty/bonus for bad/good players? Sure, but it shouldn't be so steep that us "facerolling goons" are unable to play. ;)