Wednesday, December 2, 2009

Money for "Nothing", and your Greed for Free

Everyon knows the SOP for loot rules in non-DKP (Dragon Kill Point ) informal raids:

Need - for main spec
Greed - for everything else

And it works. Mostly. There's one small addition I'd like to see roll order be:

- Need - main spec
- If noone rolled need - off-specs can roll need
- Greed to sell

I've been in a couple raids that allowed this, and I think it's neat. But because the "uninterested" folks (ie, the ones not rolling need) are potentially losing out on vendoring (or sharding or possibly auctioning) the items, I think some compensation should be "encouraged".

SO I have a proposal:

1 - Need for your main spec
2 - If noone rolls need, then the option to roll for off-spec
BUT - if you win, you should give each member a portion of the potential gold they lost. I think most blue & purple items vendor for 10-15 gold, I think it would be reasonable to require the "off spec Needer" to pay each raid member 5 gold. (for a 5 man raid)

This ensures a couple things:

1 - I honestly think that gearing everyone's off-spec is a more worthwhile goal, than simply getting lots of "useless" items vendored.
2 - Since each person is getting real gold for each of these (and slighlty above vendor price, divvied up) I think it potentially works BETTER for everyone.
3 - If you ensure that the "cost" for the person to buy the off spec piece is worth more than the vendor, you can help ensure that it is actually used for gearing.

The only downside I can see would be for enchanters which would lose out on the possibility of gaining an item to DE. (disenchant) Although, thinking about it, maybe they could "pay for the need"...

OK, maybe this would be better:

1 - Need for main spec - just click and roll
2 - "Need for a Fee" - if no one rolled for their main spec, then ANYONE can roll need, BUT, if they win, they MUST pay each of the other raiders 5 gold.
3 - Greed for the rest

Hmmm.. that could actually work. EVERYONE can make out.

- Main specs get the chance to gear up.
- Off spec get the chance to gear up, for a modest fee
- Enchanters can get "high value" DE items at reasonable cost
- Everyone else gets hard cash, ideally more than the vendor value, so they make out.

It's a lot simpler than some of the "Gold DKP" runs I've seen mentioned (at Spinksville) which I think are neat ideas in their own right. It *should* benefit everyone in getting gold (possibly extra gold?), and should still let everyone gear up ASAP.

What do you think?


  1. I think in practice Gold DKP would actually be simpler.

    I mean what you said is pretty much the same as gold dkp just modified a little bit and with a fixed price.

  2. Thanks for the response!

    I know there's a strong, superficial similarity between this and GDKP, but there's a big fundamental difference, IMHO:

    GDKP is at heart, an auction. Everything is up for bid. The only time anything gets greeded via RNG is if there's NO interest in an item.

    In this system, RNG is still the main focus. The only time this system even becomes an issue is when nobody has a main spec need for a particular drop.

    Remember; my idea here is that anyone with need for a main spec just rolls Need. No fee, no questions, just roll.

    Now, that being said, my experience is SOLEY based on 5 man runs, and it may get more complicated in 10 or 25 man runs.

    However, my guess is that, in that case, there will be very few items will be left to greed. The more players there are in a raid, the more likely you are that there's a main spec that will need the item. Ad, my off-spec "fee for need" will never be an option

  3. I don't like it. I just think if someone needs a piece of gear, even if it is for offspec they shouldn't have to waste 20g compensating the party. I think that
    - Need - main spec
    - If noone rolled need - off-specs can roll need
    - Greed to sell
    Is the simplest and most efficient method.
    On the other hand. If a BoE drops which is worth significantly more then a normal drop your method of compensation should come into play.

  4. @gex - I know what you mean, since I actually started off in exactly taht vein... but the "cost" you pay is only the vendor cost. And in most cases, I can make that much money doing the fishing or cooking daily in Dalaran. Again though, this was just my idea. :)

    On a more practical note, I had this thought before I had run 5 raids/dungeons. Overall, it seems that they run so fast, that getting off-spec loot (whether you greed OR need) is pretty much up to the player. There hasn't been enough time to sit & chat about needing an off spec item. *shrug* Maybe in slower "more difficult" content where people have to take their time?

  5. @slikrx - I don't think it's about how easy it is to obtain the gold, it's the principle of needing something (in a manor of speaking) more then they need it. If they have a use for it where the others are gonna merely vendor it. And I agree it is easy to make gold so 5g isn't really gonna make a difference in their colossal money bags. I agree completely with you about the content and its easiness.

    btw this is Gex if you didn't realise.

  6. It would definitely be the best thing if everyone were interested in getting everyone's off-spec geared up. A simple, free, 3 tier need/greed would be great. My thought/worry was something like this (assuming "free need for off spec")

    "Hey, I need that shoulder for my off spec"
    "Oh yeah, I need it too!"

    And you end up with several people, (most who don't truly need it) trying to get it, so they don't lose out on possible gold.

    The "fee" is simply a way to keep people honest. Gearing your offspec *is* worth a bit of expense, wheras you aren't going to pay 10, 15 or 20 g just to be able to vendor something. It's not a fee JUST to make the "Needer" pay, it's a fee to make sure that ONLY the truly needy roll for it.

    This also prevenst forcing the raid leader from having to play policeman to see if a player really DOES need it for off spec.

    Also, I expect this to mainly be used for PuGs, since most guilds have pretty rigid loot rules already established. And in PuGs, the easiest way to ensure compliance, is to make it worth their while. (at least that's my cynnical view lol)

    Thanks for the input!